Should I continue my transdermal T3 during a 5 day dryfast?

[Titan]

I have been on LioThyronine (T3) for a few months, the transdermal kind you can get from IdeaLabsDC's lab section.

Am gearing up for my first serious 5 day dry fast, and wonder if I should stop taking it temporarily or continue with it?

On one hand, I could spiral into hypothyroidism if I stop, and that might make the dryfast unbearable.
On the other hand, maybe it would make the autophagy more aggressive, and that could also make things harder.

What do you think is wisest in this situation?

[bundfalke]

I want to give my 2 uneducated cents:

I learned that T3 levels are a very delicate factor when it comes to fasting.
I water fasted alot this year (ca. 4 months in total) and never had a single complication during this time.
In one 11 day water fast i completed in november, i tried taking T3 just for various non-relevant reasons (increased autophagy bla bla)
I started out at 12.5mcg and increased it to 20-25mcg on day 3-4.

On day 6 i developed a weird sensation in my body and very profound muscle weakness.
I lied down and tried to rest. The muscle weakness would increase to worrying levels. In fact, i started to feel a degree of paralysis. I could barely move my body.

I got up and tried to research with the little strength i still had left.
This is what happened to me: Hypokalemic Periodic Paralysis https://youtu.be/tbP9VhaREO0
The increased T3 in my body was shifting electrolytes, exspecially potassium, in amounts that resulted in acute hypokalemia. This has happened despite the fact that me electrolyte intake during my water fasts has always been completely adequate.
Big shifts in potassium in a short amount of time result in big reactions to the body. Its why a drop of just 0.5mmol/l in potassium can be very symptomatic if its very acute, while bigger drops in serum potassium in chronic states can by asymptomatic.
This usually happens in people with thyroid disease, like hashimotos. When these people experience a thyroid storm and T3 levels increase in big amounts, this type of paralysis (which is really just acute hypokalemia) can happen.
After loading up on an amount of electrolytes that i would usually worry about, the paralysis/muscle weakness vanished.
All of this has happened from just 25mcg of T3.

Hypothyroidism: Due to my recent event after a dry fast and researching osmolytes, reactive hyponatremia, edemas, RAAS, osmotic gradients and just electrolytes in general, i have seen doctors mention hypokalemia, but due to hypothyroidism quite a few times as being one of the possible causes. I dont remember exactly how or what a low thyroid would cause, but i have definetely seen it being mentioned quite a few times. I think it was a possible cause of euvolemic hyponatremia, causing increased water retention (we do not want to fuck with water retention during a dry fast, i am sure)

What im trying to say is that: T3 IS STRONG
Wether it it is hypo/hyper due to natural causes, or hypo/hyper due to exougenous T3. It causes very strong reactions in your body and throws off basic regulatory systems out of order. And in ways that can be very hard to predict or explain.

My 2 cents are: You should absolutely not play with T3 levels during a fast, exspecially not a Dry Fast. I would not go hypo (by stopping your T3) or try to go hyper. I would take exactly the dose you need to feel good and have stable and normal T3 levels. I can honestly not predict what would happen if your T3 was out of order during a 5 day dry fast and even during the first few days of a refeed period. Your body is trying very hard to adjust during a dry fast. Playing with this adaption could cause issues. And we should never forget what we are doing here. Yes, we are dry fasting, but we are also putting our bodies into severe dehydration

Of course wait out yannicks response before doing anything. This is just my uneducated guess

[Yannick]

I have been on LioThyronine (T3) for a few months, the transdermal kind you can get from IdeaLabsDC's lab section.

Am gearing up for my first serious 5 day dry fast, and wonder if I should stop taking it temporarily or continue with it?

On one hand, I could spiral into hypothyroidism if I stop, and that might make the dryfast unbearable.
On the other hand, maybe it would make the autophagy more aggressive, and that could also make things harder.

What do you think is wisest in this situation?

First of all, I have very bad reviews of idealabs tyronene product, usually degraded to a certain % and if not, then it degrades quickly. Are yo u sure it is still providing an effect transdermally? How do you track hypothyroidism? In general, the recommendation is to dry fast without T3 (ie. dont mix a t3 cycle with a dry fast, but do it seperate). Normally if you wean off the T3 slowly there should be no big hypothyroidism effect (and if there is a problem, you can use 25mcg of T4 per situation to stabilize the body during wean off).

It's theoretically possible to make autophagy more aggressive, and some studies show a preservation of skeleton muscle mass with t3 supplementation during fasting. But everyone is different. Someone without t3 related metabolic slowdown will react aggressively to small amounts of it. But many in the chronic illness space need 100mcg to really start to feel it (there is a desensitization that we have to work on breaking through with multiple T3 cycles that require less and less).

[Yannick]

I want to give my 2 uneducated cents:

I learned that T3 levels are a very delicate factor when it comes to fasting.
I water fasted alot this year (ca. 4 months in total) and never had a single complication during this time.
In one 11 day water fast i completed in november, i tried taking T3 just for various non-relevant reasons (increased autophagy bla bla)
I started out at 12.5mcg and increased it to 20-25mcg on day 3-4.

On day 6 i developed a weird sensation in my body and very profound muscle weakness.
I lied down and tried to rest. The muscle weakness would increase to worrying levels. In fact, i started to feel a degree of paralysis. I could barely move my body.

I got up and tried to research with the little strength i still had left.
This is what happened to me: Hypokalemic Periodic Paralysis https://youtu.be/tbP9VhaREO0
The increased T3 in my body was shifting electrolytes, exspecially potassium, in amounts that resulted in acute hypokalemia. This has happened despite the fact that me electrolyte intake during my water fasts has always been completely adequate.
Big shifts in potassium in a short amount of time result in big reactions to the body. Its why a drop of just 0.5mmol/l in potassium can be very symptomatic if its very acute, while bigger drops in serum potassium in chronic states can by asymptomatic.
This usually happens in people with thyroid disease, like hashimotos. When these people experience a thyroid storm and T3 levels increase in big amounts, this type of paralysis (which is really just acute hypokalemia) can happen.
After loading up on an amount of electrolytes that i would usually worry about, the paralysis/muscle weakness vanished.
All of this has happened from just 25mcg of T3.

Due to my recent event after a dry fast and researching osmolytes, reactive hyponatremia, edemas, RAAS, osmotic gradients and just electrolytes in general, i have seen doctors mention hypokalemia quite a few times as being one of the possible causes. I dont remember exactly how or what a low thyroid would cause, but i have definetely seen it being mentioned quite a few times. I think it was a possible cause of euvolemic hyponatremia, causing increased water retention (we do not want to fuck with water retention during a dry fast, i am sure)

What im trying to say is that: T3 IS STRONG
Wether it it is hypo/hyper due to natural causes, or hypo/hyper due to exougenous T3. It causes very strong reactions in your body and throws off basic regulatory systems out of order. And in ways that can be very hard to predict or explain.

My 2 cents are: You should absolutely not play with T3 levels during a fast, exspecially not a Dry Fast. I would not go hypo (by stopping your T3) or try to go hyper. I would take exactly the dose you need to feel good and have stable and normal T3 levels. I can honestly not predict what would happen if your T3 was out of order during a 5 day dry fast and even during the first few days of a refeed period. Your body is trying very hard to adjust during a dry fast. Playing with this adaption could cause issues. And we should never forget what we are doing here. Yes, we are dry fasting, but we are also putting our bodies into severe dehydration

Of course wait out yannicks response before doing anything. This is just my uneducated guess

I will try to remember to come back to give my 2cents on this, but it's definitely a good find on the hypokalemia symptoms as a possibility. we know that a dry fast destroys your potassium levels the quickest, it's in one of the reasearch papers where they tracked electrolytes during a 5 day dry fast. t3 would speed it up, as it also speeds up dehydration due to higher cellular activity/energy.

[Titan]

Wow, this really puts things into perspective. Glad I asked you guys first. That paralysis video is scary AF.
Guess I will slow my roll, prepare better and tackle the 5 day some time in the new year.
First get stable, lower stress, then taper out T3, then dryfast. Patience is hard, but I can't be getting zombified like that poor guy.

[Titan]

First of all, I have very bad reviews of idealabs tyronene product, usually degraded to a certain % and if not, then it degrades quickly. Are yo u sure it is still providing an effect transdermally? How do you track hypothyroidism?

Tyronene is not the best, I agree, but to me it can work. It does expire and degrade, that's true, but it definitely does something. Kept in fridge it seems to last quite well.
Georgi had a paper somewhere that alcohol can make the skin permeable so transdermal absorption can occur, even without DMSO.
FWIW, it vaulted me out of crushing fatigue when I first started it. Could barely take a shower without needing to rest for hours afterward.
I learned from trial and error it only works if I combine it with Buteyko breathing for 20minutes after transdermal application.
Before I learned that trick, it was hit and miss with the effects. Sometimes it would make me hypo, sometimes it would give me energy.
I wish I knew why, but Buteyko breathing makes all the difference in the world for it. Also improves caffeine tolerance.

I generally gauge thyroid from breathing rate, breathing deep or shallow, temperature, BOLT score, energy level, mood, mental clarity and pulse.
All improve when I use Tyronene.

I mean don't get me wrong, I would much prefer the slow-release from chronic-illness.ca, but they don't reply to my contact emails.
I asked if they would replace labels so it can pass customs to Denmark, and if so how I can ask for that when there is no order comment field, never heard back.
Not really sure how to handle it then. Not if, but when danish customs open and see the name liothyronine, they are guaranteed to seize it and fine me. Nothing obvious gets past them. Can't tell you how I know.

[Yannick]

First of all, I have very bad reviews of idealabs tyronene product, usually degraded to a certain % and if not, then it degrades quickly. Are yo u sure it is still providing an effect transdermally? How do you track hypothyroidism?

I mean don't get me wrong, I would much prefer the slow-release from chronic-illness.ca, but they don't reply to my contact emails.
I asked if they would replace labels so it can pass customs to Denmark, and if so how I can ask for that when there is no order comment field, never heard back.
Not really sure how to handle it then. Not if, but when danish customs open and see the name liothyronine, they are guaranteed to seize it and fine me. Nothing obvious gets past them. Can't tell you how I know.

They ship the bottles labelled as B-vitamins with the actual label underneath so they get through customs, but you have to have a canadian forwarder to use the service

[Titan]

First of all, I have very bad reviews of idealabs tyronene product, usually degraded to a certain % and if not, then it degrades quickly. Are yo u sure it is still providing an effect transdermally? How do you track hypothyroidism?

I mean don't get me wrong, I would much prefer the slow-release from chronic-illness.ca, but they don't reply to my contact emails.
I asked if they would replace labels so it can pass customs to Denmark, and if so how I can ask for that when there is no order comment field, never heard back.
Not really sure how to handle it then. Not if, but when danish customs open and see the name liothyronine, they are guaranteed to seize it and fine me. Nothing obvious gets past them. Can't tell you how I know.

They ship the bottles labelled as B-vitamins with the actual label underneath so they get through customs, but you have to have a canadian forwarder to use the service

Sorry but I have to ask, because a lot of money is at stake for me if fined: They do this with absolutely all orders? And they don't have to be prompted to do so in any way at all?