Horrific reactions to water and food during refeed after 7WF -> 7DF (WARNING to everyone to take Dry Fasting seriously)

[Titan]

I would very welcome if you can give me a very simple rundown on the most important things to consider with this B1 therapy.

Feel free to ignore any of my suggestions if Yannick has better insights. He has way more experience than I will ever get.

The main thing is you don't increase the current dosage of B1, until you are eating at maintenance calories.
This is important, because B1 in increasingly higher doses will use up more and more cofactors like magnesium, electrolytes, other B vitamins.
Lose enough of those, you could backslide into refeeding syndrome/energy crisis, whatever it was that made you unable to drink water.
Better keep things stable for now.

The other things is B1 + B-complex + magnesium is the barebones stack to ensure B1 can be repleted.

Third thing is certain forms of B1 are simply better for repletion, and some target specific tissues better.
Thiamine tetrahydrofurfuryldisulfide (TTFD) is the gold standard that checks all boxes, and has the best bioavailability.
I think mononitrate is about 5-10% uptake, benfotiamine is about 50%, TTFD is around 90% I believe.

This means your benfotiamine is likely 5x more potent than the mononitrate you had before. Factor this in so you don't overwhelm your system.
Minimum effective dose is likely best for now. Slow is smooth; smooth is fast.

Best way to handle all these things I have found is ObjectiveNutrients basic TTFD stack.
This one: https://www.objectivenutrients.com/eu/p ... ocol-pack/
It's nifty because all the cofactors are there in one place, and the B-complex has a miniscule amount of TTFD that makes it easy to start from a small dose.
I feel like I'm forgetting something... It's kinda late here. Did I miss anything you asked about?

[Titan]

You got this bro. Stay the course now.

When you say heat up after food, that is not necessarily a bad thing, unless your body temp goes above 37.5 Celsius.
Metabolism increasing will increase heat production too.

The deep breathing reflex.. You can test out if it's carbon dioxide threshold that has been unfortunately lowered.
Next time you get that urge to take deep breaths, maintain a light to moderate (but comfortable always) airhunger via Buteyko breathing.
It's easy, free, safe and might help you heal a bit faster.

If maintaining the airhunger diminishes the urge to take deep breaths, you know you are doing something right.
It's counterintuitive, that maintaining and airhunger would lead to better oxygenation, but it works that way.
Oxygen needs CO2 to come out of the cell in order for it to enter the cell. If no CO2 to exit, O2 wont enter.

[bundfalke]

I feel like I'm forgetting something... It's kinda late here. Did I miss anything you asked about?

Thank you, no, that was really what i was asking for. I think i will be dropping my dose for benfo to 150mg for a week or two before going higher. As its fat-soluble and has a half-life of 20 hours, it will build up in my body much slower than a salt form. Ill try to slowly increase to 450-600mg over the next weeks/months. This is probably not a perfect protocol but it seems good/safe enough based on the little research i have done.

Yes, you are absolutely right. The reactions from food i get (like deep breaths), which are probably my metabolism and energy production increasing (updated the post to define and distuingish them more) are not that unpleasent and feel very natural, despite being intense. Smart of you to directly connect the deep breaths to CO2 and metabolism back when they first appeared.

Todays episode after eating my dry raisins had only lasted for 30 minutes (5-7 hours 2 days ago i think). The first time i got them, they were coupled with the unpleasent water symptoms which overwhelmed me.

Honestly i feel like kind of a maniac, realizing how im talking about "food" and "water" reactions like thats an actual thing. But the patterns and symptoms have been so clear and congruent the last couple of days, i just know they are real.

I really wish i could know what happened to me. The food, okay. But what the fuck kind of reaction is that to water after a dry fast? Yannick has never heard of this and i really feel like im the only person in the world to have become **allergic** to water temporily after a dry fast.
But then, yannick has also never heard of anyone doing a 7 day Water Fast -> 7 day Dry Fast and i seemingly have pushed limits here that even Dry Fasting Gurus would not dare.
Filonov himself says to never ever go from Water to Dry. I have seen people do it in the discord, 3 days -> 3 days. So i thought, hey, i can do 7 to -> 7.
But then, no one ever really explained WHY that would be an issue, apart from electrolytes being too depleted after the Water Fast, to into a Dry Fast. Even if that is the case, this shit still doesnt make any sense.

Sigh, i have to accept ill never find out. Ill just be proud of the fact this thread might be used as a source as to why you should never do what i did.

[Titan]

Ill try to slowly increase to 450-600mg over the next weeks/months. This is probably not a perfect protocol but it seems good/safe enough based on the little research i have done.

1. If you insist on doing this, by all means make sure you take the B1 with a potent B-complex and at least 200mg of elemental magnesium, from a form that is bioavailable.
Also be on the watch for symptoms or paradoxical reactions when you increase the dose.
Please do not increase benfo dosage until you are well and truly stable.
I don't want to sound like a salesman, am not affiliated at all, but objective nutrients bundle packs make all this near automatic.

2. How much Benfotiamine are you taking right now, today?

3.

- Deep sense of anxiety that i can feel in my chest is the most annoying one, its like a direct antidote to my willpower/mental strength
- Perhaps the benfotiamine is doing its paradoxical reaction? I dont know

That could be a paradoxical reaction, could also be low electrolytes, notably potassium.
The foods you mention don't have much potassium. Is it possible to focus on coconut water, perhaps with added honey?
Bananas carry fiber that can inactivate a fair amount of the potassium iirc.

4. If you can get in the habit of combining food-> 20min buteyko, I think that will help you mitigate stress and feel better in general. It seems so simple, but it can make a gigantic difference. I for one can not at all tolerate T3 or caffeine, without combining it with 20min buteyko right after.
It has also saved me from insomnia so many times it's ridiculous.
There are even legends of people stopping a heart attack with it. Can also make men last longer in bed. It's breathwork with "what the hell" effects like kettlebell training.

5.

I really wish i could know what happened to me. The food, okay. But what the fuck kind of reaction is that to water after a dry fast?

I am almost certain it was thiamine depletion, combined with electrolyte depletion and borderline refeeding syndrome.
Mainly thiamine tho. If it was only refeeding, food and water would work. This is tested thoroughly and known and formulated into the NICE guidelines that ER's in hospitals would use.
If it was only electrolytes, your refeed should have also worked.
Noting that it took less than 2 minutes (!) for symptoms to start after a sip of water, it can not have been stomach or metabolism, as the gut takes at least 5 minutes to empty and absorb water contents.
Why does that indicate B1? B1 is needed for the brain to produce acetylCOA, that is needed for the brain to use the vagus nerve to "talk" to the stomach and organs. Deplete B1, mystery gut issues like gastroparesis, IBS etc are known to be a consequence, and can sometimes be remedied with B1 repletion (according to Overton and clinical experience).
That is not a 100% scientifically certain diagnosis. Closest you could get was a blood draw right after the symptoms started.
Seeing that wont happen now, this is the best tentative diagnosis you can get.

Either way, progress forward remains the same. Slow and steady refeed and repletion, diminish stress and don't shoot yourself in the foot by going too fast.


I know it really sucks to have to go this slow, and that it can be maddening to have symptoms go 2 steps forward, 1 step back.
Don't let yourself believe you are regressing. Fine tuning is what's happening. You are improving everyday, steadily trending upwards.
You quite frankly appeared to be on the verge of going off a cliff and dying from "water allergy", now you can eat and progress.
Stay the course, Falk. You have got this. And look into potassium sources.

[Titan]

Here is a link to Elliot Overton's lecture on clinical thiamine repletion. You only have to open the video and read or watch one minute, no need to watch all of it: https://youtu.be/RFZUzS_xP9A?t=6304

I quote from the video about potassium:
"Thiamine deficiency impairs retention of intracellular potassium and may lead to wasting through the kidneys. In refeeding syndrome, a shift towards anabolic processes in the cells increases potassium uptake and requirement. Thiamine supplementation may increase the demand for potassium and intracellular retention."

In other words: Fasting depleted your potassium. Refeeding requires more potassium than normal. Thiamine repletion increases potassium demand even more.
---> In all likelihood, some potassium from food sources like coconut water would do you a lot of good.

Similar story for magnesium, sometimes sodium, and many of the B vitamin co factors.

The feeling in your chest of stress and anxiety screams potassium to me tho.

You WILL get through this. There is a way out, you have hard evidence of that already from your improvements.

[bundfalke]

....

Thank you. Just talking about this and just applying theories really helps me power through, even if we assume its all just bro-science.
I think managing this journal/thread and talking to you has been some kind of theraphy for me the last couple of days.

1. If you insist on doing this, by all means make sure you take the B1 with a potent B-complex and at least 200mg of elemental magnesium, from a form that is bioavailable.
Also be on the watch for symptoms or paradoxical reactions when you increase the dose.
Please do not increase benfo dosage until you are well and truly stable.
I don't want to sound like a salesman, am not affiliated at all, but objective nutrients bundle packs make all this near automatic.
2. How much Benfotiamine are you taking right now, today?

Im currently taking (and have been taking the last 3-5 days):
- 900mg Magnesium Glycinate, split into 6 x 150mg taken throughout the day
- 150mg Benfo since yesterday (dropped from 300mg)
- Will stay at 150mg and only slowly increase when i get better or enough time has passed (what do you think about that)?
- Exactly 200% (so 200% of daily recommended value) of all other B Vitamins.
- Exactly 100% of all other Vitamins and Minerals i havent mentioned (Bhought very good Multi-B Complex and Multi-Vitamin Complex from a reputeable british company)
- 7-8 bananas per day, unsure about potassium intake
- 0,5l of low fat kefir
- 1-1.5 liters of true (and expensive) coconut water, unsure about potassium amounts

Comparing my B-Amounts to the Objective Nutrients stack, the values are all over the place, some of them are increased by 1900%, some just 200%. My B-Complex provides exactly 100% of them all, and im taking exactly 2 tabs per day (taking Benfo as extra of course).
Will have to source something similar here, i live in germany.
I spent around an hour trying to source sulbutamine or TTFD here in Germany but it seems to be a real pain in the ass.

I used to supplement my coconut water with 2g of potassium chloride (1g pure potassium) as i was not sure about the potassium amounts in the coconut water and the general amounts from food i was truly taking in the last days. As you said, potassium from certain fruits/vegetables might have inhibited uptake

I think ill start adding pure potassium chloride again

4. If you can get in the habit of combining food-> 20min buteyko, I think that will help you mitigate stress and feel better in general. It seems so simple, but it can make a gigantic difference. I for one can not at all tolerate T3 or caffeine, without combining it with 20min buteyko right after.

Yes, i have done 3 rounds of it so far. It takes a couple of minutes before it starts working, but it works. While it didnt decrease the symptoms itself, it seems to be much more effective in calming me down than other breathing exercises (while being much simpler too). Will try to make this much more of a ritual for my days and my recovery.

I am almost certain it was thiamine depletion, combined with electrolyte depletion and borderline refeeding syndrome.
Mainly thiamine tho. If it was only refeeding, food and water would work. This is tested thoroughly and known and formulated into the NICE guidelines that ER's in hospitals would use.
If it was only electrolytes, your refeed should have also worked.
Noting that it took less than 2 minutes (!) for symptoms to start after a sip of water, it can not have been stomach or metabolism, as the gut takes at least 5 minutes to empty and absorb water contents.

Yes, there is obviously a metabolic response and recovery happening here, but these symptoms go beyond that. Thank you for jumping me on the B1 theory so early on.

I know it really sucks to have to go this slow, and that it can be maddening to have symptoms go 2 steps forward, 1 step back.
Don't let yourself believe you are regressing. Fine tuning is what's happening. You are improving everyday, steadily trending upwards.
You quite frankly appeared to be on the verge of going off a cliff and dying from "water allergy", now you can eat and progress.
Stay the course, Falk. You have got this. And look into potassium sources.

Sorry for being so emotional, but it feels so good to hear that, thank you so much bro. Ive gone past the days of crying and mental breakdowns but this still made my eyes watery.

[bundfalke]

......

Here is a link to Elliot Overton's lecture on clinical thiamine repletion. You only have to open the video and read or watch one minute, no need to watch all of it: https://youtu.be/RFZUzS_xP9A?t=6304

I am infamous in my friends group for being the autist who just sits down and can binge watch videos like this without blinking. Ill check it out.

I think ill start out with 1g of pure potassium added to my coconut water for today and see how it goes. Dont wanna go too hard on it as im not certain to the amounts in the coconut water itself.
I mean i cant really imagine they are cracking up coconuts, draining only the water inside of it and putting it in a container and selling that. It says coconut water, but maybe its the coconut flesh thats being grind down to make "coconut milk", like making grapefruit juices.
Now that ive been eating much more food and carbs, the shifts from the increased insulin is effecting my serum potassium even more. Add the B1 theraphy, the assumed refeeding syndrome and my potassium needs are probably very high.

you have hard evidence of that already

Fuck, you are so god damn right... you are so absolutely right with that. I DO have hard evidence of getting better and now i remember again, this is all i have been asking for when things were really bad, just improvement. Thank you for reminding me of that

[Titan]

It's hard to keep all the threads and variables together, so I will just start with what jumps out at me:

1) I think you are right that potassium might be getting too high (for now). I was not aware you already had coconut water, several bananas etc.

2) I was just thinking what your daily sodium intake might be at. On one hand, you are right that sodium after dry fast is treacherous.
On the other hand, sodium is a necessary factor to replete thiamine.
Do you have any cravings, desires or longings for certain foods that contain sodium?

3) If your B-complex "only" has 100% of RDA, that is not very much in the context of thiamine repletion.
You see 100mg thiamine is already 50x the RDA of that alone. Add benfo being 5x more potent than standard thiamine found in food, it can be 250x the RDA of B1.
This is why Overton's multi Bvitamin looks so crazy with something being in excess of 1000%.
All of these things function in relation to each other, kind of like the ingredients of a soup. Remove or increase one, the soup goes bad.
Electrolytes work like that too btw.

4) If you did want supplements from objectivenutrients, they have an EU division that has you avoid import fees.
I got it to denmark without paying tax, because it's within EU union.
It's address is objectivenutrients.com/EU

5) To kind of put you at ease, everything you describe with symptoms waxing and waning is consistent with paradoxical reactions from B1.
I had that too: First day glorious, second and third day sickly, rest of the week neutral, then stable. Increase dose, the same thing happened.
This is normal, and it's to be expected. Especially with severe deficiency like you probably have.
This is why it's crucial you don't further increase B1 dose for now, you have to get stable first. Then a higher dose might be tried, it might recur the paradoxical reactions, that further confirms things.

6) You are very welcome for the support, brother. Am happy to help.
I was there when I had post viral depression from covid, with crying pain from depression and feeling like I was doomed forever.
I remember the brainfog, confusion and dread of it all.
Quinine revived me against all odds.
It gets better, I promise you.

[bundfalke]

2: I definetely notice a longing for saltines, but that might just be trained behaviour as i obviously like to salt everything i eat. I decided to up my salt intake for the following days (was very low until now) and see how it goes. Its day 10, so my body should be able to process it in a healthier way i assume.

3: Unfortunately i am not ready to burn more money on the stack or buy each B-Vitamin and dose it accordingly. I figured if i keep using Benfo and just do 200-400% for the rest of the other B-Vitamins, it would be enough for now.

If we look at the label, we can see i would cover the dosages for 3 B-vitamins out of the 7 and i would partially cover the dosages for the other 4. I figured thats okay, no?



5:
Can you tell me more about the symptoms when you started? What form and dosage did you begin with back then? Did the paradoxical reaction create new symptoms for you, or did it increase the symptoms you were trying to fix?

Hope you are in a better place nowdays. How long did it take to get out of your post-viral symptoms?

[Titan]

3: I think 400% of RDA of Bcomplex should work.

5: It's long ago, and I don't remember it vividly. Just that I was stressed out of my mind, couldnt sleep and would try anything. B1 did the trick.
The thing is paradoxical reactions vary greatly in what symptoms they produce in different people.
Generally speaking, they make the symptoms of deficiency you had before starting worse for a period, then they go away, then if you increase dose (you dont necessarily have to increase above 100mg), they can come back again.
It makes zero sense, and is, well, paradoxical.

100mg B1 with cofactor taken daily for 6 months is far better for repletion than mega dosing for a few short days.

Much better place over all. Still have issues, but nothing like I used to.
Quinine made the post viral depression better almost immediately. When I got it on prescription, took a day or two to go away.

I have a feeling sodium will do the trick for you. Either way, keep it steady now. As long as you can eat regularly and increase toward maintenance calories, you are in good shape and doing better every day.